Evidence based curriculum

To submit feedback or questions, fill out the form at this link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeCcjgEdpruEaYMbgCRCv6jCbARf7HGSPwdCpR8ein-37A6lQ/viewform?usp=dialog

You can find more information our connect with us on our webpage here:

https://www.ncesd.org/services/sped-splain-podcast/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is a statement.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

You have the curriculum. Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Train your staff on it and let them do prevention.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Let's just focus on prevention. I don't understand why we always react instead of prevent.

SPEAKER_06 0:21

Welcome to SPEDS Planning, where special education gets decoded one case at a time. I'm Stefan, a former classroom teacher and current instructional coach, and I'm joined by three brilliant minds in special education. Darcy, Anna, and Leanne. Each week they take real stories, often from right here in Washington, and break them down into plain language. We use these stories as a launch pad to explore the wild, wonderful, and sometimes frustrating world of general and special education. Whether you're an educator, parent, advocate, or just curious about how the system really works, we've got you. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

So lots of resources. And it went really quickly. Which I feel like most of our cases kind of go over years and years. And this one, like the parent right away was like, this isn't working, and started to intervene. So it happens from January 30th. So literally, like basically February, and is concluded with a finding August.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Oh, that is fast.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Of the same year. Isn't that quick?

SPEAKER_03 1:42

So what I guess I always thought the reason lawsuits take so long is because it's like court stuff, like you know, booking rooms and like judging time and all that stuff. So how come this one could move so quickly? Wow, that was a really professional way of that sound.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

I don't know outside of education, but like inside, we have we have to offer mediation, we have to schedule a facilitated IEP, you can push back the due date if it's for certain reasons. And so I think that that's just typically like things go slow when you start adding in all those options that people have, because schools are really trying to, I hope, like at the lowest level, how can we resolve this conflict and it be a win-win versus potentially ending up with you know the judge telling you what they think is a win. So yeah, I thought this one went really quick. So in this student is was going into fifth grade, so it was the start of this school year, but this started in third. So families asked in third grade, our kid is not keeping up with the rate of other kids reading, something's going on, we made a referral, they did an evaluation, and they said, No, your kid does not qualify. They're they're a little behind, but not enough for SDI. The parents were unhappy with that eval. They took him to a neuropsychological evaluation. Um, and they recommended, well, they diagnosed significant learning disabilities, including dyslexia and dysgraphia. So that was the spring. So now the kid's going into fourth grade, and they bring this report in, and the school says, Oh, this is new information. Let's have an eval meeting. So they have an eval meeting, they put the student on an IEP for reading and writing, and they write an IEP that includes a hundred minutes per week of SDI for reading and writing. So he goes through his first progress report comes out in that year, and the family's like, Wow, you're really doing great. Like, this is amazing. This SDI is really working. Like, what's going on? And at that, they have a progress actual meeting with the family because the family wants to dig into the progress reports a little bit more. And at that meeting, the parents find out that they used iReady, which is an assessment that's very common and it's adaptive. So rather than it being like a standard at grade level, everybody gets these questions, they it adapts based on how the kid answers and then gives you a score from there.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

So the progress that the parents got showing he was making so much growth was coming from i ready.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yes. Was that aligned with the goal? The IEP goes.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Yes, they used they used iReady as the baseline. Um that's why the parents were like, this is amazing. And it doesn't really line up with what we see because what we see is my kid not reading. So they had some concerns there, and the school district responded and they said, Well, let's let's change, we're gonna keep using i ready, but we're gonna add um the Wilson reading program.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Anybody got one is it a dyslexia dyscurriculum like or or in gilling them?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yep, yeah, okay. So multi-sensory it's a great curriculum, it's evidence-based, right? Like super responsive. I'm like, yeah, way to go, district, like you're winning. So one of the one of the pieces, right, just as a whole part of MTSS, an adopted curriculum, and how you get there is using the evidence-based curriculum. And I think sometimes we we question the fidelity and how those how curriculums often are are supported. So they start with this hundred minutes, another grading period goes by, and the progress shows like no progress now that they're using this evidence-based curriculum. So the family gets back together with the school, and what's what's going on? What does this look like?

SPEAKER_03 7:00

So this is now when sorry, is this now half the year or the first time was that before a quarter? So not that.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

No, this was December. Okay. Great great district families are like actually having progress report meetings and sharing the data. And and um, so I think they're keeping an eye, keep they're keeping a close eye on their child's progress, right, with around reading. And so they ask all these questions and they come to find out that this hundred minutes is not actually what the Wilson curriculum recommends, and they actually recommend an hour a day of reading instruction.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Not 20 minutes a day. We don't make progress on 20 minutes a day. So they weren't implementing with fidelity.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

They were not implementing with fidelity.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Because also this curriculum is being alongside iReady in his 100s, right? So really we should assume it's like closer to 10 minutes a day on average.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, and I don't know if iReady was happening as SDI or whether they were using that more as a general ed support or intervention piece.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Um just a progress monitoring tool, maybe not their actual instructional method. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So it's halfway through the year, and the parents are asking even more and more questions after this progress report. They probably got some decent guidance around requesting for more time. What did that look like? They enroll their kid in private tutoring, um, who is also using a dyslexia evidence-based curriculum. And um they start asking about, well, who's doing the SDI? What exactly does that look like? And they've assigned a parent ed to do the SDI. And she actually tells the parents, well, I'm only doing about 10 minutes a day, and he's not really getting through all the steps. I'm skipping some of them. Um, and they put potentially it sounds like they have this awkward conversation about what's not actually happening for SDI. See, this is why I wanted to see Leanne's face.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

That's a problem. You can see that my face says that's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah, so um then especially designed. Right? So spring comes along and um the kid scores a level two on the state assessment. And the family says, How did the kid get a level two? He can't read. Like that doesn't make any sense. And the school says, Oh, well, we we accommodate him and we read the assessment to him.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Also saw that coming. Stefan, what's the face? I don't think you're allowed to read a reading assessment to a kid.

SPEAKER_06 10:34

I mean, I guess there's there's arguments we made, especially with the incoming release of the new ELA standards about multimodal reading. But that's not you can't do that. I feel like I mean, unless that's written into the kid's IEP, right? But I guess a gen ed teacher, I never never came across an accommodation for a student on uh the reading portion of the state test to where I could read the reading to the kid. There was some writing, like uh there were some accommodations where I could read the writing prompts to the student because you're assessing writing, not reading. Uh-oh. Yeah. That feels just like cheating.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

It certainly didn't feel very transparent. Um, and so accommodations like the read aloud options are usually you can like read the directions to the student, and then they have to read the passage. So there is some pretty clear guidance about how that how that comes about. So parents at this point are like, we've got private tutoring, you're still not doing your job, you haven't adjusted the IEP, we want a private placement. We want to send them to a completely different school. So they file their lawsuit. Um, and they actually did that in right February. So it was even before then. Um and yeah, I feel like this one is super cut and dry. It must be the way I was explaining it, right?

SPEAKER_06 12:15

Well, this kid's gonna get a like, I mean, I just would would he go to a different school in a different like within the same district in a private school, kind of wherever they get to go. I think they wanted a private school.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

So the parents didn't unilaterally place first. They asked for only two okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

I think Stefan, are your are your biases about private schools coming into like no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 12:55

Not that like they're gonna put in some private school and this is gonna be worse. That's not what I'm saying. But like this this feels like uh uh low-level incompetence. Not that it's not egregious and it's not a bad thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:09

But um But as a as a parent, they're following their rights and doing what they can and should be doing to advocate for their kid.

SPEAKER_06 13:20

But if every every parent was this hawkeyed about our system, we'd be in big trouble, which is something I'm relatively transparent about, anyways. Um, just in my own gripes about public education. But uh as you're going through this case, I kind of felt like I was waiting for the hammer to drop of like, and then it just turned out there were fake in all the data. But it turns out, but like uh it seems like, yeah, it just kind of seems like malpractice. Like using iReady as an adaptive test to measure progress, I do actually kind of think is a good, is a good thing in that like you want to meet students where they're at. Um, and you want to show progress in a master your competency-based program. Like that's um that gives teachers the tools to provide interventions and supports at an appropriate level because you don't want to do something that's too hard. Like, I don't want to use the term rigorous, because rigor implies like an appropriate level of challenge, right? With the with the scaffolds built in. So you don't want to, like if this kid is having trouble accessing grade level content at a third or fourth grader and they can't read, well, you need to assess them and instruct them at an appropriate level to give them the competence and confidence to be able to progress and to grow. But if you're reporting your data and saying he's making all this growth and you're not being super transparent that like it's growth, but it's not at grade level yet, I could see that being an issue.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

But I'm not serving his minutes. That's the other thing.

SPEAKER_06 14:57

Yeah, yeah, that's that's the other thing. That makes perfect sense. Like with um the because I I I don't know. I know that like our local school district uses iReady. Um, and there's a there's a difference between like the iReady curriculum materials and the iReady test, it's like ready math, and iReady is the test, maybe. Um and so that ready math is like the grade level work. But then if you're only doing like if you've got this, yeah, I guess there's a mis mismatch right there of like the Wilson reading system supposed to be an hour a day, you're only doing it for 20 minutes a day. Of course, you're not gonna get there. I guess I'm just surprised, and you haven't said this, but I'm assuming that's where it goes because you said it's so cut and dry. I guess I'm just surprised these people got a private placement simply because it seemed like the team wasn't really up to the task. Did the school not have more resources to try to meet this kid's needs? Um it just seems like a private extreme decision.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I don't think she said that that's what was awarded yet. So I think request. Right. So I would guess that they did not get uh a private placement paid for, um, but they may have comp ed because they didn't make the progress that they had calculated the IEP to make. Potentially they weren't serving the IEP correctly. So I don't think that the court would say that they owe private placement compensation. That would disappoint me, Washington. My judge attorneys and court system way more sense.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

You know what surprises me a little bit is like not maybe I shouldn't say this, but I'm tired of anyway. Not that this is right, but it is not uncommon for when you have a Hawkeye parent, you dot your I's and cross your T's with that kid, more so than your others. So it surprises me that after requesting extra meetings and knowing that they're so closely monitoring, they're still not serving the minutes. And I also would say it's not super uncommon to not do a curriculum with fidelity. I mean, like then how many times a lot of times the curriculum will say something like that, well, your reading box only 40 minutes, so I can't do the full hour, right? Or those types of things. I mean, it that that not doing it to fidelity is not at all surprising to me, having such a shortened amount of time when the curriculum is intended to be, you know, 20 minutes a day is not very much time for SDI and reading, I don't think. Um so like some of those pieces, but yeah, I don't I'm kind of surprised at them not having their eye on the ball a little bit more.

SPEAKER_06 17:49

Well, and I wonder since you said the part of the MTSS process is having uh what'd you what'd you say, uh research-backed curricular materials. As someone who is in the middle of facilitating uh a materials adoption right now with a district, one of the questions that always comes up is the F word, you know, like do we have to what does it mean to teach this content with fidelity? Um and everyone always interprets that a different way. To me, it's always been relatively clear cut in my head that like first year of an adoption with materials, like you pretty much stick to it so you know what you have, but then like teachers have to be teachers and your kids are all different. And so you adapt, you accommodate, you bring other resources, but like the hope is also that you're bringing in um like you're relying on research-backed strategies and interventions and materials, not just going to teachers pay teachers and and grabbing a bunch of random stuff, right? So I guess it uh there is a big difference with them, I think, taking this, these these Wilson reading materials and saying, well, we're just gonna do a third of the time if that. Like, uh, but like in talking to these publishers, again, this is secondary, so maybe it's a little bit different, but they're really transparent with like um one of them specifically told me uh these units are not meant to go in order necessarily. We have all these different school systems, and they have they're leaving these ones out and they're mishmatching these ones together and they're rearranging the system. That is a decision that's up to the district. I was like, that's very interesting, because then you'll still get teachers who are like, well, I'm supposed to go page one to page 500 and get through all of it of the course, you know. So that's always the tension. And so that kind of like messy um fidelity of implementation, I think doesn't shock me because you want a little bit of that freedom and flexibility in schools for teachers to not be restrained by their materials, but also be supported by them. The time thing makes sense to me. Like you need, you can't just, you know, when you say a hundred a hundred minutes sounds like a lot, a lot, but like when you're talking about a week, yeah, you're literally talking about 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

And it wouldn't surprise me if like some of the time is cut off with transitions and especially when or assemblies or fire drill or um, but especially when he's not making progress. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, it's all about progress. So I the law doesn't say you have to implement a curriculum with fidelity in order to prove that you're offering FAPE, but you do have to make progress. And yes, this school district definitely should have known that this parent would be watching for that progress. And so it is kind of surprising that they weren't um being more careful. But I do think this is another one of those areas that we are really weak in is um when we have students that are more true dyslexia. So they're high fun, you know, high functioning in all areas, probably high IQ, but can't read. We don't close the gap as well in special education instruction as these private tutors. So I think we're this this is a common issue that we're gonna have to. What does our reading instruction look like? And why aren't we closing the gap as well as privately paid tutors without the level of credentials potentially that we have? That is a problem.

SPEAKER_06 21:15

So time and personalized instruction, right? Is the it's it's way oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Sorry. Did they request reimbursement from the tutoring as well, or only the placement?

SPEAKER_02 21:29

They asked for reimbursement.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

But he wasn't making he wasn't making progress with the tutor either.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

He was making progress with the tutor using a different dyslexia curriculum in a one on one setting.

SPEAKER_06 21:46

So that's your difference, right? Like if you have, I wonder how long he was with the tutor. Like if you have individual attention where you can be working on very specific skills, it's a lot different than asking an intervention teacher, sometimes a para. Which love our paras, not certified teachers, right? And so they you kind of make do with what you have in public school. And so that's that's just a really big difference in someone who's, you know, getting paid privately and you know has this one kid to focus on and can design things specifically for them. The other thing is like you could make the argument that the kid was making progress if the the adaptive test is showing that this kid is growing. You could make the argument the kid is making progress that is relevant to his current level of understanding and competency. It's just not at grade level. And I do think those are two different things. Like you want your students achieving a grade level, but if I have a student in my class, if I have a seventh grade student who can't speak English, happened multiple times in my classroom. Um I'm not I'm assessing that student on very different things because they don't need how to write, like their immediate need right now is not how to write a paragraph or an argumentative claim or whatever, right? Their job is to be able to interact with the world around them and then also deliver some of that instruction and materials in Spanish so they can still grow in those skills in their in their home language. So I think it's the same thing here with like you still need to meet this student where he's at. Every kid deserves access to the grade level standards. Uh it's just how we scaffold their access to those. And so I I don't know, like I initially heard like, well, it's it's it's uh the the IRET test is assessing uh him at an adaptive level. And so like that data is not valid. I would argue it is valid in some sense because it is showing growth and progress, just not at the level that the parents expect, which I think is good for the record. You need to have high expectations for your student, that's how you get them to grow and to achieve. And also, I think there's an element of uh trusting I don't know. I'm I'm lacking. Makes me want to question every assessment.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Say that again. Makes me want to question every assessment.

SPEAKER_06 24:09

Yes, as it should, right? Like a lot of the ways we assess our students are not are not very good. And they're not, I mean, I'm doing a ton of that work right now, like with some districts. It's like, what does equitable assessment look like? And what does appropriate assessment look like? And um, what are the different ways that we can get students to show show their level of understanding? Um, but also the things that teachers grapple with with gen ed and special ed is that you've got a variety of abilities in your classroom. Your job is to meet them where they're at and move them towards grade level standards, and that just means something different for every kid. And so, like it might have been appropriate to be testing this kid, at least in the gen ed setting, and providing so I want to answer, I want to say something about that after you guys are get the results of what the judge said.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Because I think this is the most interesting part of this case. So the judge said that despite evidence of insufficient progress, that the district did not revise the IEP and um in their periodic review, and so they failed FAP because of that IEP progress piece. And we know if we don't see progress, we're supposed to amend the goal or get the team back together. And um the remedy for this denial was the parents got reimbursed for the private tutor, which was pretty cheap. It was only $2,000. Um, and then the judge ordered 46 hours of literacy direct tutoring in SDI of comp ed, and he calculated it based on the fact that the Wilson reading program was supposed to be this many minutes per day, and that he had evidence of one-on-one actually with the tutor was effective for him. And so he calculated that comp ed time as one-on-one time in his comp ed. And you rarely see that. Usually what you see are judges going, you know, if you're gonna do something one-on-one, it's more intensive, kids can't sustain as long. And so they kind of do an average or they come up with some reason for a number, right? So I thought that that was that was interesting. And I think that this school district attorney really led them astray.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

I'm excited to hear that because in such a big district, I would think they have some pretty fancy mancy lawyers.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah, and I'm guessing they do, but I just feel like this was so like they had the right curriculum. This was such an easy fix from a district stance, right? Like, okay, we didn't see progress, let's go back. Is a reading writing SLD kid. Like, we can we know how we should know how to do that work, right? So I feel like that was like a lot of time and energy kind of spent with potentially coming out with the and the judge did not let them go to a different place. They said, school, you need to, you need to do it right. You don't get a private placement. Schools are made for this.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Good job. Like they can do this. Leanne nailed that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

And their attorney kept going back to this case of um Falmouth School District versus Doe. And they kept using this. Well, he's a slow learner. And I'm like, that is a lose. That is a lose lose, as like a stance for it's okay that they're really not making much progress. We're gonna use this. Like, how do you come out with a relationship with this family when that's your stance? Is it's not us, it's you.

SPEAKER_06 28:02

You'll get it eventually. It's just gonna take him more time. We've taught him, he just doesn't get it.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

So the attorney argued on on the basis of this being a slow learner and not on the basis of okay, that's interesting. Um, that won't ever get you where you just kept referring to yeah. So the problem is your kid, not not our instruction. That's never a good idea. Um okay, well, I I also just want to say to Stefan's point, like when these go to court, these judges are not like experts in instruction and curriculum and fidelity and all those things. They're just looking at, did you follow procedural, you know, guidance? Did you which they didn't because when the kid wasn't making progress, that's when they could have come back and implemented a different plan. And even if they weren't making a ton of progress with the different plan, because maybe the student is really challenged by learning to read. Um, and you know, they're gonna take a while to find the right instructional method, they still would have been okay because they were looking at the data and making data-informed decisions, which you said you're not seeing a ton of in schools, and we would agree that if that was in place everywhere, we would be in a better place.

SPEAKER_06 29:30

Well, and that's the follow-on question always when I do the standards work with districts is like, what do I do for a student who like should be at this level of their learning progression? Most kids are, and like we got to keep going. Do I just let them keep sitting in? No, no, no. Like that's when you adapt your instruction. That's when you start talking about RTI and like more intensive, like that result of like, hey, we have proof that if this kid gets personalized instruction, he's going to make grade level growth. And so we're going to require you to do that. I wish you could do that for literally every single kid. You know, I like I wish we had the resources to be able to say, uh, because it's one thing for me to say, like, oh, like you want to grace grade on this mastery-based competency-based scale, and like kids are going to take different times to learn. And so it's all about meeting them where they're at. Yes, but at some point also they got to get it, you know? And so yeah, uh, not every school or family has the resources to be able to say, we're gonna give them private tutoring where they have one-on-one instruction, but that's the dream. It's not that every kid has their own private tutor all the time, it's that when they need it, they have access to explicit instruction that is personalized for their specific need. You know, it's like taking your car to the mechanic.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

I definitely don't like the decision of 46 individual hours. That how does that set up um the rest of the kids that are gonna fall into this category? Because this is not a very um low incidence disability. This is a very high incidence disability. We can't meet that standard. So that's disappointing.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

Thank goodness it went so thank goodness it went so quickly. Because imagine if this was two years and not 36 days.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

This feels like a settlement. You you have the curriculum.

unknown 31:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Train your staff on it and let them do that.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Again, prevention. Let's just focus on prevention. I don't understand why we always react instead of prevent.

SPEAKER_06 31:31

Leon, you're you're worried about the precedent it's setting that 46 hours.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

I mean, it doesn't, I guess, set a precedent with the award, right? It sets a precedent on whether or not it was found supported or not, like if they won the claim. But I do think 46 individualized hours is just a very mismatched award for that particular failure. I've seen districts do far worse and have way less comfort owed. Like that is just shocking to me. The punishment didn't fit the crime. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

And you know, what you don't know we is always a ton of things with these cases. Like, did the parents go in and ask for I want one-on-one? And that's why the school district was like, Whoa, that's you know, like what the circumstance we will not know, but it's just an interesting case to make it all the way to a due process.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

It's also um judges don't have any other index, I guess, to decide how many comp hours. So he was doing his best, but that's like just a ridiculous amount of hours for one-on-one for a small child. Um it might not tolerate that.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Do any states have guidance over that you know of have guidance in like what determines comp ed, or judges just get to kind of willy-nilly do their thing?

SPEAKER_02 32:55

I do not know if there is guidance to judges about what that looks like. I it like to to that point, like we've seen outrageous comp ed at the same hand, right? Like 700 hours. And I think when you hit a point where what's reasonable, right? They're already in school all day. Let's hope they not have a sport or a hobby or anything else going on, right? And then how do you how do you find that time? Like what part of your child's life does that time come from? Because it everything comes at a cost. It's just like the special ed piece, right? Like if I want to do 60 minutes a day of special ed, you're gonna miss something in Gen Ed.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

So on the award side, Darcy, because I maybe haven't seen how this happens all the time anyway. Sometimes they do provide that 46 hours, but then I've heard other cases where the district will determine how much that would cost and write the family a check, and then they go and secure those services. Is that more common to write the check or to actually schedule and facilitate the services and have the district take more ownership?

SPEAKER_02 34:11

I think it depends on how the award is written. So judges can say at uh, and you'll see often in those um a private provider up to $150 an hour, right? They have like a cost for that. And so I think it depends on how it's written. Some districts can go back and say, we can't do this, or we don't have staff that are gonna be able to do this, and then you know, is it a negotiation and an agreement to write the check potentially? The case that's writing the check is gonna be like you find the provider and we'll pay them.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yeah, the way that I've seen it done in my own experience is that the tutor will bill the district for their hours, so you're not gonna pay for anything under 40. You know, if they don't get to the 46, you're not gonna have to pay for all 46, which is the way that I would like that to look, probably as a director. Um, but then you told me of a situation where they just wrote the family a check and I really didn't like that. But I really it also just washes the district's hands of having to arrange all of that and make sure it's happening and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Stefan's probably like, you're that can't be real.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

They write the district or the parents to check and say go get the same.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

I mean, parents are just going on field trips for fun. Now they're just they're just getting money.

SPEAKER_06 35:47

We are doing it wrong as elementary school parents, Anna. We could be going on field trips and getting free money.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

I went to farm day, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Thanks for tuning in to Speed Splane. If you've got questions or thoughts about today's episode, we'd love to hear from you. Head over to our links where you can drop in your questions, join the conversation, and connect with us. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode if you found it helpful. Until next time, stay curious, and Stephen will keep SPDs plated.